It’s only been 6 months since our last dose of Sherlock, but that one-off holiday episode created more questions than answers and we’re eager for more! With the crew hard at work on a fourth series, and only two weeks left to film, we were excited to sit down and talk to Writers and Executive Producers Steven Moffat and Mark Gatiss, Executive Producer Sue Vertue, and actress Amanda Abbington (Mary Morstan) at the 2016 San Diego Comic-Con. The conversation is going to be published in two parts, because they had a lot to say.
No spoilers of course, given those in attendance! Instead we talked about the challenges of bringing this story to the screen over an extended period of time, with everyone’s schedules being so difficult to navigate, as well as keeping story secrets in a modern age. But what seemed to elicit the most emotion from Moffat and Gatiss, was the frustrations that come from both the press and the fans taking things that have been said by those involved in the production and twisting them to suit their own agendas.
Doing research for the interview, it quickly became clear something major had happened in the Sherlock fandom during the first couple days of San Diego Comic-Con. It didn’t take long to pinpoint the cause of the social media flare up. Moffat was on a panel with Bryan Fuller and Michael Green, discussing the topic of representation – specifically gay representation – in media, particularly in science fiction and popular television. A few comments were being taken by some in the Sherlock fandom as confirmation that a certain ‘ship’ (‘Johnlock’ – John Watson and Sherlock Holmes) would not only definitely happen in the series, and that Moffat had actually confirmed the pair would lock lips in the Season 4 finale. In fact, the fans were congratulating themselves on being right all along. It felt like a major overreach by fans, and Moffat agreed.
“Can I just say, yes, very much so. What is irksome is what I am talking about is quite a serious thing, a serious question, seriously answered by both myself and Bryan Fuller who managed to answer much more quickly than I did. I was talking about the representation of minorities in science fiction shows and in popular culture. Using the example of talking about gay characters and how you present them. I was actually largely talking about Doctor Who, ’cause Doctor Who addresses children. And I was talking about how do you handle gay characters in a fiction like Doctor Who when you are addressing very directly, children. You don’t want it to be campaigning. You don’t want to be table thumping about it. You don’t want to essentially tell children that there’s something to campaign about. You want to say this is absolutely fine and normal. There is no question to answer. You want to walk right past it, in a way. You don’t want to… If you say, as sometimes other kinds of literature or movies might, we forgive you for being gay. You’re just saying you’re gay and it doesn’t matter. There’s no issue.”
“That’s what I was talking about. Was not talking, I was very much specifically not talking about…” continued Moffat, clearly passionate about the topic, and frustrated at the way his words have been twisted, “It is infuriating frankly, to be talking about a serious subject and to have Twitter run around and say oh that means Sherlock is gay. Very explicitly it does not. We are taking a serious subject and trivializing it beyond endurance.”
As to Sherlock’s ending, he quipped, “Sherlock Holmes ends up keeping bees in the Sussex Downs. That was established 90 years ago.”
At this point, Gatiss interjected, “It’s worth saying – because we never get the opportunity to actually say it. The whole notion, the idea of them possibly being a couple is inspired by the joke in the Billy Wilder film The Private Life of Sherlock Holmes, our favorite version. And we thought that was a good idea to run with that. In the 21st century it wouldn’t be an issue. People would just assume. Maybe we’ve done it too many times I don’t know. That’s all it is. He explicitly says he is not interested. Doesn’t mean he couldn’t be. Doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with it. I’m a gay man. This is not an issue. But we’ve explicitly said this is not going to happen – there is no game plan – no matter how much we lie about other things, that this show is going to culminate in Martin and Benedict going off into the sunset together. They are not going to do it. And if people want to write whatever they like and have a great time extrapolating that’s absolutely fine. But there is no hidden or exposed agenda. We’re not trying to fuck with people’s heads. Not trying to insult anybody or make any kind of issue out of it, there’s nothing there. It’s just our show and that’s what these characters are like. If people want to do that on websites absolutely fine. But there’s nothing there.”
“And don’t put it into your mouths,” added Vertue.
“No, completely,” continued Gatiss. “Don’t blame us for things that aren’t there. It is infuriating. We get pilloried for these things as if our show – we haven’t even made the thirteenth one yet – has to have the shoulders to bear every single issue and every single campaign point. You can’t do that. It’s our show, they’re our characters, they do what we want them to do, and we don’t have to represent absolutely everything in that ninety minutes. It’s impossible. And it would kill it. It would be deadly to it.”
Moffat concluded, “And I also think in my case, I was talking about representation, as was Bryan, in quite a serious way. What they did was scale back that conversation and make it about something extremely silly. And that’s not helping anyone. I cared a lot about what I said on that panel. I meant it. And I don’t like it being reinterpreted as something else. [We’re] not telling anyone what to think. Mark isn’t saying other people can’t write that version of John and Sherlock getting together. We’re not. We’re not engaging in a clever conspiracy to write something under the radar, we’re just writing the show we’re writing.”
I clarified, at this point in the conversation, “That’s not the story you’re telling.”
“Yeah, that’s it,” Moffat responds. “But they can. They can. Once we hand the show to them, it’s theirs and we’re finished with it. They can do what they like.”
To be fair, it wasn’t just the fans Moffat and Gatiss were frustrated with. In a world of click bait articles, the pressure is on the media to one up each other and snag the readers’ interest. No one wants to read the article that says “Moffat says he doesn’t know if there will be a Season 5 of Sherlock,” instead, they want “Is Season 4 the end of Sherlock? See what Moffat says.” (This story could easily have been titled “Is Sherlock Gay? Moffat and Gatiss Set the Record Straight”, but we thought that was disrespectful considering the conversation).
“Now I did an interview for the Radio Times about something else last year and the last question, they said we have to ask you about Sherlock,” Gatiss told us. “And I said, well I can tell you nothing, course not. And he said go on. I said no – that’s the point. You’re not going to trick me. And he said this happens in the original story and it’s tragic. And I said it will be the same mixture of tragedy and humor and thrills and blend as you’d like. And I said you’ll make that into five different headlines. And he laughed and ran off. Six. ‘Gatiss teases tragedy in Sherlock.’ That story went round the world. I said virtually nothing.” He laughed, “He still screwed me.”
“I, for about six months, had said nothing,” added Moffat. “And people were just nicking quotes from old things I said in other situations to pretend I said something new. They applied some comments about the casting of the new companion for Doctor Who they applied to Pearl (Mackie, who will play Bill in the 10th Series of Doctor Who), which I had actually said about Jenna Coleman years before. They were pretending I said that about Pearl.
If we sometimes seem slightly irritated it’s because…”
“The other day you said ‘I would be very surprised if this was the last series’,” added Vertue, “To be translated into this is the last series.”
“You can’t get more bald-faced than that,” joked Gatiss.
Sherlock season 4 will premiere in 2017 on the BBC in the UK and PBS in the USA.
To see the second part of our interview, click here: Sherlock & A Study in Secrecy.
![Every year the Academy of Science Fiction, Fantasy and Horror Films gets together to honor the best of the best with the Saturn Awards – celebrating the best of Science […]](http://www.withanaccent.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/the-saturn-awards-36x36.png "SATURN AWARDS: List of Winners and Photo Gallery"){kind=small}
![HBO has announced that two of its biggest shows, Game of Thrones and Westworld, will be duly represented at this year’s San Diego Comic Con. Fans of both shows may […]](http://www.withanaccent.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/westworld-36x36.jpg "Game of Thrones,Westworld coming to San Diego Comic Con 2017"){kind=small}
Would you mind releasing a fill transcript/recording of this interview? If not, what are your sources?
Hi there! In this kind of situation, we are not allowed to release the full transcript or audio. It’s just the way it works when they don’t let you do a video interview. We’re publishing what we’re allowed to.
And our source is the interview we ourselves conducted, along with two other outlets. Thanks.
listen, I’m not accusing you of lying or anything, but yes, you actually CAN release the transcript of interview made at SDCC. see? batman-news.com/2016/07/25/tom-king-interview-sdcc-2016 ? there is no rule that could stop you from releasing the full transcript. 🙂
Actually, you are. I said I’m not allowed to release the full unedited transcript, because I’m not. You either accept my word or you think I’m lying.
I can’t release it. End of story.
Nerdgeist released theirs. Any thoughts?
That’s actually not a direct transcript. We took turns asking questions. Their story contains only the questions they asked, and there were more to the answers than what they posted.
I promise you, your argument is invalid. I’ve even spoken with many press people I know (Im at the TCAs right now, surrounded by them), and they all agree. Fans are being silly about this.
I won’t continue this argument. I know I have better things to do with my time, and would hope you do too.
Hi I didn’t know so much drama was going on. Even though I love the whole Johnlock ship. I would have never thought it would be written into the show. That’s what Fan fiction for. Mark, Steven and Sue have said that it’s not an possibility, so I don’t understand why others are angry. I truly enjoyed you’re article thank you. How was SDCC?
Hiya,
Since nobody has yet replied to you, I guess I’ll take a minute to do so 🙂
Many ‘Johnlock’ shippers are angry and upset at Mark/Steven/Sue because they were completely sure that it was going to be canon, and that the creators were ‘queerbaiting’ us all through the seasons. What’s worse though, is that many people are arguing back at them quite… childishly, if i’m honest. I don’t understand, if you know what you have to say is going to cause a huge riot, think twice before posting it.
I wish we could all get along like we used to in middle school, I wish I could bake a cake filled with rainbows and smiles and everyone would eat and be happy.
But yeah, that happened. 🙂
Sue Vertue and Mark Gatiss have confirmed content of the interview as being fully accurate on their twitter accounts yesterday.
Thank you for this interview! I hope the comments you are about to get for it aren’t too terrible!
Finally a level-headed interview. Thank you for that!
Thank god they’ve made it clear now, I’m sick of those fans they’re ruining the experience of being in the Sherlock fandom, and they’re so angry and aggressive if you disagree about “John-lock”, the hatred they have of Amanda and Louise (Mary and Molly) is embarrassing, i think now they need to start respecting the creators of this show and realise that this idea about Sherlock and John being in a sexual relationship with each other is only going to be on tumblr and fanfictions not on the BBC show.
I don’t know but in my opinion being on a website and talking with other fans about fantasies and your ideas about the show is not in any way disrespectful. What was said about the fans in this interview DID happen on tumblr, so no need to tell the fans to stay there. They did not tell Moffat or Gatiss about their secret hopes or wishes (which is not a bad thing to have), it probably was the interviewer who told them (or they searched for this themselves, which I do not believe). Also, literally every person I know who ships johnlock likes Amanda and Louise. I don’t know about you, but I read a lot of tumblr johnlock blogs and most of them just want to stay on tumblr, be happy and be left alone. Nobody says these things about the other ships in the fandom, so why be so angry and hateful yourself?
Sarah is just telling the truth, Amanda got and still gets so much abuse now and the majority is from Johnlock fans, those fans actual thought Johnlock was going to happen and the creators said (again) that it’s not, now Johnlockers are getting angry and petty at them, this is so wrong. Also @ing the writers and actors about your “ships” is all fine, but demanding it to happen is so disrespectful and it happens a lot, those fans need to understand they cannot cross that line with the writers of the show.
While I appreciate YOUR experience, I must caution you that there are some rather virulent strains of the Sherlock fandom, and they have expressed hatred for Amanda & Loo, as well as the characters they portray. Amanda received some serious Twitter hate when it was revealed she would merely play Mary, (an actual canonical character). I speculate that Gatiss & Moffat receive communications via social media, etc. regarding Johnlock, It’s fine when that kind of interest stays in it’s own “lane”, but it simply doesn’t always do so. There are those who believe if they get their message/idea heard, it WILL be acted on.
I adore fanfic, and favor a particular non-canon “ship”, but I have run across others who have vehemently declared Johnlock WILL be part of Moffit & Gatiss’ version of Sherlock. (I agree with Sarah, it can be “embarrassing” – and unsettling.)
Really enough people!!! Bullying the writers about shipping there are fanfictinons to force the shipping in.it don’t do it to the genius writers of sherlock
Well done Valerie for doing this interview, well done Mofftiss and co, this needed to be said, it’s not fair on the writers to be made to feel bad when it’s their show, no one has any right but them to decide what does or doesn’t happen in the show, i just want them to know that there are many many fans of the show who respect your choices and who don’t “ship” Sherlock with ANYONE (shock lol) those other so call fans are just on louder platforms.
The problem with this is though that they are clearly constructing a romantic narrative. Yes, this is “old hat” in fandom terms, but seriously: replace one of them with a woman and Gatiss and Moffat would have to defend themselves over how they have NOT put their characters together as a romantic pairing. See the mind twist this is? You are officially saying, “I can put two characters into a romantic narrative and only for the opposite-sex couple will it become the ending it was meant to be. As for the other two, man/man or woman/woman, they could be just friends.”
This is not okay. This is not the story you are telling. Don’t denigrate the fans who love your product who simply pick up on what is THERE.
THIS. YES.
Okay Rob, The opposite sex: Molly, Janine, Irene = don’t get the man.
Please tell us where the sexual part in the relationship between Sherlock and John is “THERE”
First off, Irene is gay. Janine was horribly tricked by Sherlock, so he did not deserve her caring for him. Molly got the man and turned him down.
Now, relationships do not need sex to be relationships. And this is not about them having sex. It’s about the love they share, or that the authors tricked us into thinking they shared.
It’s got nothing to do with the opposite sex/ same sex that was my point. And the majority of “johnlockers” who give abuse to the creators and actors are the ones who think they’re going to be in a sexual relationship (or already are in one!) And that there’s also sexual attraction between them. Sherlock just doesn’t want that from anyone regardless of what’s between their legs.
(my questions were to Rob, so I’m still waiting for those Q’s to be answered.)
He was pointing out at the hipocrisy of the people who say they represent the queer community in any way in their work but then are horrified at the thought of things like these becoming canon.
Also, even if I am not the op, hi, I have an opinion and I would appreciate you not dismiss it. Since I am a polite Johnlocker who does not abuse the writers and actors but point out how they are harming me as a member of the queer collective, and I am not the original commenter, am I not the kind of fan/Johnlocker you’d like to debate with?
Not at all I’m just still waiting to see if Rob will answer my questions, as they were directed at him. Also it’s quite obvious Sherlock is not interest in any sex. That’s my point. That’s the writers point too, so, move on.
Hi Michael, this is Rob again. Sorry for the late reply, things are crazy lately.
If you want my personal opinion, and this is of course nothing but my personal opinion; I am not seeking to attack or ‘convert’ anyone, or the like. My personal opinion as a gay man is this:
During s1/2, Sherlock was busy developing an emotionally, socially and intellectually intimate connection with John, very much against his will. ‘Highfunctioning sociopath,’ remember? He wants to be cold. He isn’t. Wanting to be cold, as Moffat said, already is an emotional decision.
Moving on. This intimacy happens, and I think we can all agree to this. Now s3 is the point at which I see Sherlock clearly as a demisexual man, i.e. someone who begins feeling sexual attraction only to someone after having begun said emotional, social, and intellectual intimacy with that other person. I think this is the case for Sherlock.
Sherlock comes back and we get this:
– “I think I’ll surprise John, probably jump out of a cake.” – Yes, obviously this is meant to be a joke. I can let it pass once. But why chose THIS of all things? Sherlock clearly knows about the social connotations of this act; he’s a genius.
– Sherlock’s repeated and intense harping on about John’s honeymoon – oh, sorry, I meant the SEX holiday of course. Don’t believe me? Look at this: http://johnwatsonblog.co.uk/blog/11august
This is Sherlock imitating John’s writing style on his blog after typing up a blog post as John and Mary are on their honeymoon. Sherlock, alone, having been left by his best friend – and I can get behind being jeaous of the spouse even just from platonic motivation, honestly, but what I can’t get over is the blatancy of this: “Good evening everyone, this is Sherlock Holmes. John can’t be with you today as he is on his Sex Holiday. Sorry, honeymoon.
Apparently we aren’t allowed to call it Sex Holiday. Apparently we really shouldn’t tell children that John and his wife have gone on Sex Holiday.”
Wow. Why would I care about my best mate having sex with his wife if I was just upset he’d left me behind and I wouldn’t get to spend more time with him? I don’t see this at all. Sherlock is so painfully frustrated with the situation here, and it’s horrid to watch. This isn’t just platonic jealousy. If my best mate were behaving like that I’d flat out ask him if he was coming on to me, and my best mate IS a jealous ass. But there are boundaries. Sherlock clearly pushed this one.
– Next up: the entire act with Janine. Sherlock knows people, is a master manipulator, and most of all he knows JOHN. So when he tells him, “And stay out of my bedroom,” he obviously wasn’t believing John would do what he told him. He incited John’s interest. What could possibly be in that bedroom? Reverse psychology. John Watson is masterfully manipulated by his friend and proceeds to get an eyeful of an almost naked lady that soon even joins Sherlock in the bathroom. (… and please, please no one tell me that John’s reaction in that scene is “platonic.” I BEG you.) Sherlock then proceeds to almost ENJOY having Janine in his lap – and not for the reason that he likes her kissing him or having her physically near him. That close-up shot we got from Sherlock’s still lips and almost grimacing face confims this. Whereas this?: “Ah, it’s – very affirming” is full of self-confidence. Full of “showed you, John. You’re not the only one who can have a sexual relationship.”
Again – if my best mate were trying to pull that stuff on me I’d be worried about our friendship!
– the entirety of the special. It was a drug-fuelled Mind Palace trip, in which we got Sherlock trying to solve a case and having Moriarty pop up in the supposed perpetrator’s clothes telling Sherlock to “stop this, just stop it. You don’t care about the Bride, or any of it. There’s just one thing in this whole business you’re interested in” – the special is about Sherlock becoming more self-aware, about coming to know himself. He tries hard to stay rational, to solve the case, find the murderer – like his real self, he tries to stay distanced, to stay focused, to remain the sociopath – but what ends up happening is he’s being beaten down by a Moriarty who curiously looks like he’s fellating his gun and then he’s being saved by the imaginated Watson, who grins right back at him after Moriarty comments on them eloping (which again is a product of Sherlock’s own subconscious!). The sexual component thought? The greenhouse scene, Watson asking Holmes, “You must have… impulses,” while referencing a Vienesse alienist who’s known for theories on sexual repression etc. If you’ve paid attention to a Scandal in Belgravia you’ll know what Irene really stands for – Sherlock’s growing awareness of his sexuality, NOT the object of it! – so her popping up in the pocket watch confirms the sexual nature of the scene, and it is all focused on WATSON, on JOHN. Repeatedly. Inside Sherlock’s head. While he’s drugged. After he probably left John forever and didn’t get to tell him what he’s been wanting to say always and then never has, and since it’s unlikely they’d ever meet again, he might as well just have said it now, but he didn’t – and instead he proceeded to re-read John’s first blog entry on how they met, about how CHARMED John was by Sherlock etc etc etc…
do you really need me to go on? I think the case becomes quite clear. It’s rather embarrassing, I think, that people don’t see it right from the start.
Which is what returns me to my initial point: NONE of this would NOT have been seen as a romance if John had been a woman, or Sherlock.
A female best friend writing vindictive, snarky blog posts about her male best friend’s recent marriage and how said best friend is now off on his SEX holiday? Come on, give yourself some credit. Don’t pretend you wouldn’t have seen it as romantic.
This is what I think of it. Take it or leave it, as you will. Each to their own. I am personally just curious to see where they will take the story now if that isn’t what they’re doing! Talk about some narrative consistency here…
Oh wow, it’s so strange how you johnlock fans look at things, Sherlock was clearly taking the p*ss out of them going on honeymoon (as he looks at it just as people having sex just in a foreign country, he thinks it’s pathetic people call it a holiday because to him all newly weds would do is have sex.. So he make fun of John doing exactly that) and he’s jealous that his best friend, his only friend isn’t spending all his time with him, but you know if you want to imagine that he’s sexually attracted to John, up to you, but it’s not what’s happening on the show.
With Janine, John was (for the slightest moment) jealous that there was someone else living in the flat moving and changing everything around (something he’s not use to, as would any in that situation, even siblings) and he was in shock that Sherlock had a girlfriend and was acting “normal”, and he was probably miffed that sherlock never told him, wasn’t because he was sexually attracted to Sherlock…
He imagined Moriarty in his mind palace as the personality he is in real life… The things he did and said are what he basically did and said in Sherlock’s real life….
And it’s so cute how you johnlockers try to find anything to prove Sherlock doesn’t feel something special for Irene (very possible sexual) and try to make it that it’s really how he feels about John, you’ve all been watching a different show, it’s so sad…
You don’t get it, Sherlock’s not interested in any sex regardless of if his best mate was a woman. This is how they’ve written their show, stop thinking of what ifs…
You want them be together, so you take any scene between them and twist it to your own benefit (johnlock) but there is just no sexual interest between them, you’re all clearly angry and hurt because you’ve all been in your little bubble on tumblr (or wherever) and the writers have finally said (what was quite clearly obvious to many fans) that there is no Johnlock happening in the show, and to leave it there with your own groups on tumblr (or wherever) and to stop @ them demanding Johnlock to happen.
“Wow. Why would I care about my best mate having sex with his wife if I was just upset he’d left me behind and I wouldn’t get to spend more time with him? I don’t see this at all. Sherlock is so painfully frustrated with the situation here, and it’s horrid to watch. This isn’t just platonic jealousy. If my best mate were behaving like that I’d flat out ask him if he was coming on to me, and my best mate IS a jealous ass. But there are boundaries. Sherlock clearly pushed this one.”
From a personal standpoint, I would care very much what my best mate’s up to (including any sexual adventures), just because it meant he/she could have spent time with me instead. And I would be jealous enough to want to mock whatever he/she’s doing, including calling a honeymoon a ‘sex holiday’. As a heterosexual – it bothers me to have to state this, as if sexual orientation should alter someone’s validity or point – platonic jealousy can take the form of a ‘sexual’ jibe, for the fact that ANY jibe would be enough to make my feelings known.
“Full of “showed you, John. You’re not the only one who can have a sexual relationship.”
Again – if my best mate were trying to pull that stuff on me I’d be worried about our friendship!”
I agree with your observation that Sherlock was showing off to John that he wasn’t the only one ‘good with the ladies’, that if it came down to it (in Sherlock’s world, ‘it’ being slaying a dragon), that he could do it too. If I were John I’d be worried about our friendship as well, for the reason that Sherlock thought he needed either 1) my approval or 2) felt a need to turn it into some kind of competition. Ironically, the act is a huge compliment to John and betrays his admiration and respect for the man’s social skills.
As for John asking Sherlock about his impulses… I have asked that of friends of the same sex. I didn’t of course, reference any Vienessee alienist, but the point is, it’s not a taboo thing to be speaking about with a friend, and it doesn’t equate to sexual interest, or hope of reciprocity and so on. It COULD, but it doesn’t have to be. It’s also unfair to assume the things Sherlock didn’t say to John are of a sexual nature, or that being charmed had to mean it wasn’t platonic. I could go on, but I think you get my point. Our observations are the same, and for every scene you say supports the notion that John and Sherlock are romantically involved, or that the writers were queer baiting, I could say the opposite. I don’t agree with you, and I ‘didn’t see it right from the start’ because I’m embarrassingly slow to pick up on the hints. The hints can be read and interpreted either way, because we are individually influenced by our own life experiences.
I could be that female best friend writing snarky blog posts about my male best friend’s recent marriage and how said best friend is now off on his SEX holiday if I felt his time could be better spent with me because I’m WAY better company, or if I think his wife has average IQ.
Personally though, I enjoy the ambiguity (though not so ambiguous to me, and to JohnLock fans who believe the exact opposite) and I attribute that to great writing and acting.
It was never sexual with Molly (he used her in the first season… terrible), Janine (huh… also used), or Irene (she was a lesbian, as she said herself) so that merely shows that either a) Sherlock is not interested in women or, b) he is not interested in sex at all. Either way, it doesn’t have to be sexual with John too, romantic relationships are not – and should not – be based on sex.
You just have to watch John’s wedding to see how sad Sherlock is and how he misses him when John is not in the flat, and that’s only two things – there are a lot more. But anyways.
You don’t seem to understand the point i was making, Rob said if it was the opposite sex the creators would have put them together, but there was 3 woman, and Sherlock wasn’t interested in any of them.
And Sherlock just watched his only friend start a new life with someone else, he was depressed, doesn’t mean he’s attracted to John.
Yes, Sherlock wasn’t attracted towards the other 3 women. But you have to remember that’s it’s not all about what gender they are. If Sherlock was demisexual, he would like John for his personality and him as a person (likes, dislikes, etc.) not because of his sex.
“romantic relationships are not – and should not – be based on sex” – I agree they shouldn’t be BASED on sex, but what is a romantic relationship if there is no physical component, (unless both parties are committed to celibacy)?
We know nothing about Sherlock’s sexuality, (not even preference, if any), except it is either non-existent, or forcibly suppressed. We DO know that John has a sex drive and is attracted to women, (evidenced in practically every episode and confirmed by Magnusson’s intel). John also CHOSE to marry, and despite a major problem, was remained married and appeared very happy. I really can’t see a romantic relationship between Sherlock & John making sense at all.
As far as Sherlock missing John and being lonely, of course he does & is. John’s is the FIRST close friendship of Sherlock’s entire life. He couldn’t miss what he’d never known, but once he had a friend AND roommate, the loss must have been horrible.
Thank you. I ship Johnlock (very casual shipper, mind. I’m not here to bite your head off, unlike many 🙂 ), but I know that if it miraculously happened, I doubt it would be sexual.
In my perspective, I believe Sherlock never had sexual attraction towards any of the characters, it’s been made pretty clear by our brilliant writers that, while he MIGHT participate in sexual activity (with Janine, although it isn’t clear if that was a lie made up by her or if it really happened) , he isn’t particularly interested in it.
Come on, guys. He literally had a naked woman trying to have sex with him, if he wanted to, he could have played along to get laid. I know it’s fun shipping people, but it’s unfair to keep pressing these ideas into everyone’s heads. If you ship Johnlock, I think, for the time being at least, keep low-key about it. Let all this chaos die down.
Thanks again 🙂
Sherlock is gay. He doesn’t give a crap about a naked woman.
Kelli, get out of here, you’re missing the points entirely. Back to Tumblr for you.
They clearly do not feel they are “constructing a romantic narrative”, nor do they intend to do so between Holmes and Watson. If they were to “replace one of them with a woman”, I feel sure they would easily defend a lack of a romantic pairing by saying, “It’s our show and that’s not the story we are telling.”
It may be worth mentioning that there are a great many fans who also love the “product”, yet aren’t “picking up on” what you declare exists, because we don’t see any “THERE” there. Moffat and Gatiss aren’t trying to “denigrate” anyone. They are telling a story based off ACD’s work, and don’t plan to fundamentally change the relationship between the two main characters. They have said it plainly, so any THERE you think you see, is not by their design.
Thanks a lot for sharing truth. The JohnLock argument article is rebuffed. Why do fans write these dichotomies? This anti-canon nonsense, kitty cats, red-herrings, you know? Just repel the idea. Me thinks they protest too much, and they can’t win.
This has proven to be the biggest queerbait in the history of TV. You have shaken a candy cane before all of us, hungry for representation, and all the people waiting for someone to have the courage to take the big leap that was discussed since ACD canon times and you have decided to tease and pull back. Thank you for the falling out, Mofftis. I thought you were better than that.
Where was the “queerbaiting”???
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queer_baiting
I suggest you to read this article and watch the show all over again. If I explain every single queerbait moment, I’ll turn 72 and you’ll never get your answers.
Stop this negativity towards the creators of this wonderful show, this idea of “Johnlock” becoming “canon” was thought up by some of the “fans”@@, not the creators, you don’t decide what happens in the show.
You looked and thought you found something that wasn’t there. Move on.
Where is the negativity, man? Are we unable to debate? Am I not entitled of feeling angry after years of them hinting at something and then dismissing me and my fellow Johnlockers? You move on all you want. I am fed up and I will bery much say it out loud all I want.
You’re not debating you’re telling them that they wrote Sherlock and John as a romantic/sexual couple, they tell you they didn’t (numerous times) and when they finally say it loud and clear you get angry, no, you have no right to be angry, they never said they’ll be together, this isn’t your show, you don’t get to decide what happens, again move on from Johnlock being canon, it’s not happening.
Totally agree. Except for the gay jokes, Johnlock was largely wish-fullfilling fantasy in the.minds of fans. Moffat and Gatiss said repeatedly that it wouldnt happen. So did the stars. Too bad you werent listening but it is not the fault of the writers.
Completely agree with everything you’ve said Michael, it’s great to see more level-headed people in the fandom, I’m starting to feel really positive about the Sherlock fandom again, this interview saved it, thank you With An Accent.
This is not queebaiting. I mean, it is not as if John was the only character who is sometimes teased with a romantical relationship towards Sherlock. They do the same with Irene, Molly and in some weird way even with Moriarty. This is important to play with the strictley logical “machine” Sherlock always seems to be. We never know, what exactly he feels, but he definitly has a heart and that makes him interesting. The way he struggles with emotions. And what some of the Johnlock-Fans want is nice, but it would destroy the drama and is something that can happen at the very end but it simply wouldn´t work over many episodes. It doesn´t fit Sherlock as a character. Because the mystery makes Sherlock such a good show. And it´s definitly not queerbaiting. By the way, they have Irene (and Harry) as a gay character. We never know for sure about Sherlock, Moriarty and Mycroft. So John, Mary, Molly, Lestrade and Mrs. Hudson remain as straight characters. There is the represantation. And in Doctor Who Moffat makes Vastra and Jenny a homosexual couple, because there it works good. But just because they tease something it does not have to happen in the show. They are the writers and you can like what they do or stop watching, but don´t insult them because your ship may not become canon.
Exactly my thoughts. If they are so annoyed that the creators are not giving them what their want, why they just don’t stop watching? There are other great crime or mystery shows with canon LGBT characters they can enjoy – How to get away with Murder, Shadowhunters, Mr, Robot, Cuffs, London Spy, Sense8, Quantico… I feel like Johnlock shippers are just too lazy to look up something else so they decided to focus on this one show and blame the writers for their own misinterpretations.
Or maybe we wanted that character to be a MAIN character? Or maybe it’s just that we still enjoy these shows, but of course we must steer our attention toward something gay, because you are not willing to let us share the same things. Thanks, people. You have now proven that queerbating is real. Just by not acknowledgeing it.
Please calm down, this is not your personal tumblr blog where you can be rude as much you want, this is comment section of a serious article. Your lack of politeness and basic human decency is astonishing. I’m not surprised Moffat and Gatiss are so annoyed and harsh, if they have to deal with this everytime they give an interview.
Excellent interview. There will be always fans who claim the creators are lying only to make a huge “gay” reveal later – i. e. the fans of tv shows Merlin, Supernatural, House and so on – but Johnlock shippers always act like they are special snowflakes who uncovered the biggest conspiracy in television history. I understand how exhausting it must be for both Gatiss and Moffat denying this same thing over and over.
Okay, I think a lot of s*** needs to be cleared up.
I ship Johnlock. No, i’m not a rowdy fan that needs to be put in a cage, nor do I press Moftiss for a romantic or sexual relationship between Sherlock and John. I just think that they would work well together, their mis-matching personalities piece together nicely. That’s it. While it would be nice, I don’t feel like it has to be on screen for it to work. The most fun in TJLC is the last word- conspiracy. It’s all a big mystery, that we have to analyse the episodes and put together evidence to pass our time, because, let’s be honest, broadly speaking; sherlock is basically my favourite pass-time. How we look at each episode with such rigor, it’s fun.
So, unlike you have said. I know I speak for many Johnlockers when I say: we don’t make them ‘feel bad’ for not making it canon. We do respect their choices. That is all.
(P.S- this was just to clear things up. I did, in no way, intend you to be insulted by anything I might have said. Thanks 🙂 )
Thank you. Carry on, though you don’t need anyone’s approval. If it’s a mental exercise you enjoy, sure, why not? (It’s not actually a conspiracy though.)
SOME Johnlockers must be giving Moffat and Gatiss a hard time. The comments on this interview include someone accusing them of “denigrating” fans, and someone else making claims of “queerbaiting”, and that’s after M&G making a definitive statement.
I’m sailing another “ship”, but I’m content with a scrap now & then from M&G – though it will NEVER be a thing on the show. I rely on lovely fanfic writers for the rest.
I am a gay man. I was drawn into this show from the very first episode, because that episode led me to believe that a love story between the two was going to be a THING. But as the years went on and they mocked the idea, then encouraged the idea, then lied and mocked and this vicious circle went round and round, i realized that no. It wasn’t. They continuously told us, for YEARS that it was never going to happen. But fandom has a way of sucking you into motivated reasoning, cognitive dissonance and confirmation bias, and its really easy to get lost in and have a huge amount of hope and expectation built up.
but the one thing that always stayed true for me, is that IF they were doing this, they were doing it badly? Look at shows like Sense8, where the queer rep is NOT lied about like a filthy secret. And it was HUGELY successful internationally with their queer characters out for the world to see. Them “lying to protect the secret” was always a straw man argument at best and i knew that deep down. That is not how you do PROPER queer representation that is respectful and progressive. True representation does not give a flying frack if the straight audience is comfortable or absorbs it.
When TJLC became a thing, I believed it. because i wanted to. Because as a gay man, I thought i was getting a real, well written, fully fledged m/m love story that was also about deep friendship. Something we hardly EVER see on mainstream tv, even in 2016. yes there are some shows, but the proportion is still way unbalanced. So I held on.
I was a part of the fandom and the johnlock community for years. Except at one point, things became over sexualized. John and Sherlock, their relationship and their love started to become fetishized, infantilized and just…made into a joke by that same fandom, and I eventually had to painfully leave it, especially after suffering abuse by a lot of the tjlc community.
BUT, a little part of me held on even as i distanced myself. That small hopeful part of me, kept that flame lit that even if i didn’t watch the show until they became canon, that would be fine.
But this. This has confirmed what I’ve known for a couple years now. And honestly? Its liberating. I feel so free now. Free from the fandom, from the show and the false hope of real representation. Free to move onto BETTER shows that know how to do queer representation the RIGHT way. And you know what? On to far better writers that know how to write it and now a fellow gay man who queerbaits his own community…and for the funny?
So I am finally thankful that this has been put to rest. I can;t wait for Sense8 with REAL queer characters, or The Fosters, or all the shows that are coming out that aren’t “lying about the queer” because they don’t have to. Sherlock is a good show in some ways and an abysmal failure in others.
ACD’s original texts were queer as fuck and have been analyzed as such for decades and no cis straight people or queerbaiting gay writers can change that. And someday there will be a truly queer holmes and watson, well written and they will be the best versions that ever existed.
This article has been confirmed by both Sue and Mark, and I thank you. because i am finally FREE. Its just sad i can;t say the same about John and Sherlock. But now…now we can move on, and learn from this. To not trust a writer just because he’s also gay. To not fall into this trap again.
Peace out Holmies.
Well it’s great you’re not deluded anymore, that side of the fandom saw things that was never there, and now hopefully all those people who called themselves fans of the show will leave and the genuine fans who respect the writers and the actors can enjoy being in the fandom again.
Also, they never encouraged the idea.
“But fandom has a way of sucking you into motivated reasoning, cognitive dissonance and confirmation bias, and its really easy to get lost in and have a huge amount of hope and expectation built up.”
I had hopes for your post when I read this. Storytelling is a work of art, and should be open to the viewer’s interpretation. It’s just bad manners to freak out when the artist tells you the intent of his work, something which contradicts what you perceived. Does it make your interpretation invalid? No. He’s just telling you what is, and neither party is right or wrong.
“Free to move onto BETTER shows that know how to do queer representation the RIGHT way.”
The show never campaigned for any particular group whatsoever, so technically, they can’t be doing it ‘wrong’ if they never claimed to do it. I’m sorry it’s such a black/white choice for you to have to base your TV choices on representation – can’t you enjoy both on the merit of storytelling?
I’m glad its not black and white for you. I’m glad there is a lot for you to choose from. I personally am sick of cishet stories. I’m sick of not seeing myself, so yes that has diminished my capacity to care about or become invested in stories where everyone is cishet, where its only cihet romance, where graphic cishet sex is shoved down my throat for absolutely no reason that is relevant to story or plot.
And No, I stick with my assessment of “they’re doing it wrong” because, there WERE queer characters. And there were “jokes” as they said of Sherlock and John being queer. Albeit not funny jokes and jokes mostly only straight people would find funny because we’re still used as their punchlines.
So I do stand by everything I said in my post, and thankfully, my post doesn’t require your approval, just as their show doesn’t require mine. But I am still allowed to be disappointed, just as you’re allowed to try and dismiss my completely valid feelings about this particular thing.
And to answer your question, yes I can actually, in fact most of my favorite shows are filled with nothing but white cishet ppl. But I’ve finally reached a point where I realized I don’t have to settle for just that, and nor should I.
“I’m sick of not seeing myself” Well gee, aren’t most of us, one way or another, in TV or movies or in real life – unless, of course, we are straight white men?
FWIW, I don’t know any heterosexual who’s gender & sexual assignment matched from birth. who enjoys being referred to as cishet. Perhaps, if it didn’t seem like the term was always used with some level of disdain, it wouldn’t be offensive.
But if wishes were horses, poor men would ride.
I had no idea sexual identity/orientation/preference was a make or break for TV shows with you. You don’t see yourself in a character’s personality? Sense of humour? Circumstance? Can’t identify with a character’s moral dilemma? Ethical/political preference? Hobbies? Okay then.
Honest question: How are you any different from a homophobic who behaves similarly by expressing his lack of interest and distaste for homosexuals?
I’d also like to know what I said that made you feel that I was dismissing your feelings. That was not my intent.
When I quoted you, I meant I had hopes for your post because it sounded like you were putting forth an explanation for your own disappointment of the show (‘huge amount of hope and expectation built up’), which like you said, you are allowed to feel. But then the remainder of your post turned into a lecture of how the writers weren’t doing queer representation right (which they never claimed to do in the first place), which made me think you weren’t as self-aware as I thought you were when I read your first paragraph.
LGBT people are societally oppressed. So expressing disdain for a culture of homophobia and heteronormativity and have it be nearly always the only thing you see and are shown from the point of birth is NOT the same thing as being homophobic. Get out of here with that crusty and ridiculous opinion.
Can I just say I love you for your use of ‘Holmies’
Okay bye 🙂
Someone ought to come up with a list of scenes with two interpretations, one ‘obviously not queer’ and one ‘obviously queer’. It would be an eye opener for both sides and a great contrast in perspective. If this has been done, could someone link me to it? Thanks.
This is a wonderful interview, I’m so happy that Mark and Steven have expressed their frustration, I can’t begin to imagine how disheartening it must feel for them to have some of the fans hung up over a fan pairing that they convinced themselves was real, it’s so unfair that they have to feel like this, the fans have absolutely no right to be angry or hurt, they told them all along that it wasn’t happening, it’s just so disrespectful to their work, it’s a wonderful show and acting, and now they have to deal with all this pettiness, i hope those people either move on from this and enjoy the show or stop watching.
I think it’s kind of obvious the writers and actors don’t like Johnlock, also they’re all really into Adlock (Sherlock & Irene)… Especially Benedict and Mark (think Ben’s their #1 shipper )
I am an older straight woman and it seemed quite clear to me, from the first season on, that this Holmes and Watson are in love with each other. If they’re truly not then I must consider what the writers have done as queerbaiting. There’s no other explanation.
I’m sorry but it’s not queerbating as what some of you claim to be between Sherlock and John has never happened on screen, you have assumed things that have never happened and will never happen, it’s quite clear that Sherlock loves John but it’s also quite clear that he’s not IN LOVE with him and doesn’t think of him in any sexual way, sorry but stick to the fanfics for that.
Everyone just chill. If Sherlock is asexual he is..if John’s his cup of tea than fine. Or he’s been hetero all along. Just don’t say one cannot happen. That is closed minded and stupid.
What’s stupid is disrespecting the writers and aggressively state that a ‘fan pairing/ship’ will happen and that if it doesn’t the writers are ‘queerbating’. The writers and actors have said so many times that it is not happening, there’s nothing closed minded about it. Anyone who ships it has to just keep imagining on tumblr.
Mark Gatiss and Steven Moffat are huge fans of all things Sherlock, and the BBC show is their labor of love. Both men are also accomplished writers and showrunners who have won many awards and are at the peak of their careers. Between those two facts you can be sure that there are very few accidents in Sherlock: if they employ classic romantic tropes or historically queer coding, these men know exactly what they are doing.
It is no accident that the title of the first episode appears over a shot of Anteros, the god of requited love, or that our first image of Sherlock in both the present and in 1895 is inverted. Brilliant people on tumblr, such as @loudest-subtext-on-tv, have written thousands of words of analysis and built strong arguments for a romantic arc between the leads. LSIT and others have also published quotes from an internal BBC report as evidence that the BBC is looking to increase representation and would support this kind of slow-burn romance with a happy ending on a major show.
These tumblr writers are not grasping at straws, or trivializing issues of representation; they are building careful arguments that respect the writers, the actors, and the creative team. It is the consilience of their evidence that I find convincing: specific choices in music, set design, editing, and acting hang together in an intricate web. Perhaps those elements are “red herrings” instead of clues, but I find it implausible, given the genius and integrity of this creative team, to assume that these elements are either accidents or intentional queerbaiting.
So then why would the writers deny their intentions? Certainly it would make sense to lie, deflect, or mislead people about major plot points and character growth, and both Moffat and Gatiss freely admit to doing so in the past. Why should they tell us the truth? Do we really want to know everything before the show has a chance to speak for itself?
Some comments are true, but potentially misleading. They have repeatedly denied that Sherlock and John are in a relationship, which at this point in the story is true. But in this interview, when Gatiss spoke of the future, he used the actors’ names rather than the characters. He promised that they won’t write a story with Martin and Benedict going off into the sunset. Moffat said that a romance is not the story they are telling, which is certainly true. But it appears to be the story they are showing us on Sherlock, which just below the surface is a magnificent puzzlebox; a game of subtext and observation, and just possibly the version of Sherlock Holmes and John Watson that some of us have waited a very long time for.
I trust the writers, the actors, and all of the creative team. Let’s see what the next series brings.
It didn’t happen. It never was happening. Please just stop, you thought you saw something that wasn’t there, clearly. The 2 leads in this show are not going to be in a romantic relationship. Let it go.